Ethnogenesis *3. I2-Urnfield. I-Italic tribes. 536 depopulation.


worldlingo.com/enwiki/Haplogroup_I2 Until 2008, Haplogroup I2  was formerly known as Haplogroup I1b. I2b*Haplogroup I2b* was found in the skeletal remains of Lichtenstein Cave, a Bronze Age archeological site in central Germany associated with artifacts of the Urnfield culture [6]. Of the 19 males represented in the cave, 15 yielded the full 12 tested STR values, with twelve showing I2b*, one R1b, and two R1a. The Urnfield culture (c. 1300 BC750 BC) was a late Bronze Age culture of central Europe. The name comes from the custom of cremating the dead and placing their ashes in urns which were then buried in fields. The Urnfield culture followed the Tumulus culture and was succeeded by the Hallstatt culture.

The numerous hoards of the Urnfield culture and the existence of fortified settlements (hill forts) were taken as evidence for widespread warfare and upheaval by some scholars. Written sources describe several collapses and upheavals in the Eastern Mediterranean, UrnfieldCulture_thumb[4]Anatolia and the Levant around the time of the Urnfield origins: end of the Mycenean culture with a conventional date of ca. 1200 BC ; destruction of Troy VI ca. 1200 BC ; Battles of Ramses III against the Sea Peoples, 1195-1190 BC ; end of the Hittite empire 1180 BC ; settlement of the Philistines in Palestine ca. 1170 BC. Some scholars, among them Wolfgang Kimmig and P. Bosch-Gimpera have postulated a Europe-wide wave of migrations. The so-called Dorian invasion of Greece was placed in this context as well (although more recent evidence suggests that the Dorians moved in 1100 BCE into a post Mycenaean vacuum, rather than precipitating the collapse). Better methods of dating have shown that these events are not as closely connected as once thought.

More recently Robert Drews, after having reviewed and dismissed the migration hypothesis, has suggested that the observed cultural associations may be in fact partly explained as the result of a new kind of warfare based upon the slashing Niue sword,[1]and with bands of infantry replacing chariots in warfare. Drews suggests that the political instability that this brought to centralised states based upon maryannu chariotry caused the breakdown of these polities.


Maciamo/Eupedia: Illlyrians could have been I2a2. This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic. But they surely also had a small percentage of E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Neolithic. The existence of the Illyrian tribe goes back at least italic tribes_thumb[6]to 4000 years before present. What one can wonder is whether they already had R1a before the Slavic migrations. It seems that the R1a in the Balkans is very ancient – possibly the only type of R1a that could pre-date the Indo-European migrations. It could be that I2a2-South is indeed to young to be Mesolithic in origin. But it could just as well be that the population of the Dinaric Alps was generally sparse over the last 10,000 years, so that their mutation rate was much slower than the world average. I think this is also why haplogroup I1 had been mistakenly judged to be so young (some claim as little as 4500 years). Hunter-gather societies had low population, with low birth rates, and they happen to coincide with haplogroups that look young (I1, I2b, I2a2), but probably aren’t. <<The center of the Italic Tribes area is Foggia – today the region with top I values in Italy. Latin languages – I origin!!>>


Actually Goths were already for a long period in Dalmatia when the dramatic climate change in 536 occur, but what is interesting is fact that this year coincide with unsuccessfull Byzantine effort to return Dalmatia inland into its own domininon. The campaign was raid under the comand of Mundus, Byzantine military chief, Gepid by origin who were killed in that war. It could be a case that most of Greeks(Romans) left Dalmatia in that year not because snow in July but because of bloody Gothic wars in that region. We have to mention the great plague from 542, and begining of Byzantine-Persian wars. It all dramaticaly depopulated not only Dalmatia, but also Italy. In Italy for example populatian dropped from 7 million to 2.5 milion.

<< This could explain the overall low I values in Italy!? And the shift in Balkans from Romanic populations to Slav colonization.>>

In 561 first group of Slavs were entering the Balkan teritory of Empire. They found land in ruins and devastated. Colonization began. (…most of I1 in Balkan can easily be Gothic in origin, and there is lot of it…I2a2 is not likely to be Gothic as language shift would not happened in I2a2 dominant areas when less populous R1a people would enter in small numbers into wild and aggressive I2a2 dominant areas…)

Is there a scientific paper about the depopulation of central Europe around 500s? I was always wandering what the heck happened? First I was blaming Attila the Hun, but I guess he was a bit sooner around. He could have started it but wasn’t a main cause. Was it the constant movement of nations from east, every generation killing more than was being born? Was this the cooling period in Northern Hemisphere, intensified by volcanic activity? Super winters, cold summers? Was this a big plague? Or all of it together finished 90% of inhabitants?

iapodos I don’t know for previous periods, but depopulation of 6th century is easy to understand which way happened:
Till 533. it was quite stabile situation. Western part of Balkan (Dalmatia) was under Goths in Ostrogothic kingdom. Actually Ostrogothic kingdom under Theodoric was western part of Roman Empire with Gothic elite as ruling caste. The population in Dalmatia and Italy was still Roman with of course some Germanic minorities. Central part of Balkan was under direct Roman rule, as the eastern one.
535- Justinian I attacks Goths and Gothic Roman wars began
536- dramatic climatic change, little ice age
541. great plague, killing 40 to 50% populatian of Roman Empire
554- Romans finally defeated Goths, end of Roman Gothic war
558.- Avars came to Panonia for first time, allied with Slavs their making incursions in Dalmatia province
572.- Beginning of Roman Persian wars, most of Byzantine military moved to east leaving Balkan provinces without protection
577.-Slavs are already in Balkan provinces, they reach as far to Peloponesus
586.- Slavs were already settled from Danube to Peloponesus, Empire lost all Balkan inland
So this is a short history of Balkan in the second half of 6th century. It is obvious that previous Roman (Greek) population was already devastated with famine, plague, wars especially in Dalmatia which was always less protected part of Empire and more exposed to the intervention from northern barbarians.
Climatic change in 536 was recorded throughout Europe, and as we see real decline of Roman (Greek) power began with that year. Is it possible that Serbian legend about Greeks who leave the country because snow fall in July was an echo of some true story, story about crash of Roman Empire in Balkan and almost total change of its population.

In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down.[6] By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia.[7] As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: “the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country.” However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579.[8] Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God’s instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites.[9] By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (Main article: Maurice’s Balkan campaigns).

About Alex Imreh

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One Response to Ethnogenesis *3. I2-Urnfield. I-Italic tribes. 536 depopulation.

  1. Giacomo porcu says:

    Hi. I’m looking for an ancient Sardinian civilisation in this speech.. But there isn’t .
    We are talking about a civilitation that grew up and realized a number of 15.000 prehistoric monuments only in Sardiana. Talking about Italy there is lack of 4 thousands years only to speak about how sardinia became important for tribe how lived there.
    Hundreads dolmen and menhir,more than France Germany and UK sites, 8000 thousand nuraghi, 3000+ thousand giant graves, 2400+ domus de Janas( grave made digging the rock) , 300+ holly wells.. Where are “Giganti di Monte prama”? Or nuragical bronzes?
    In the map there isn’t anything about what nuragic civilitation made.
    Look this map to understand what I’m talking about :
    http://nurnet.crs4.it/nurnetgeo/

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